Hogwarts Legacy and Cyberbullying on Twitch and Social Media

J.K. Rowling, the author of the Harry Potter series, has been the subject of controversy in recent years due to her comments and tweets on transgender issues. In 2020, she received criticism for tweets she made about transgender women and for expressing her views on gender and biological sex. These views have been widely criticized as being transphobic and have resulted in a significant amount of backlash from the LGBTQ+ community and allies.

Many fans and organizations have taken issue with Rowling's views and have called for her to educate herself on the experiences of transgender individuals. Some have also called for a boycott of her work and for her to retract her statements. On the other hand, some people have come to her defense and have argued that her views are protected by free speech.

Regardless of one's personal opinions on the matter, it's clear that Rowling's comments have generated a significant amount of controversy and have sparked important discussions about trans rights and equality. It's important for individuals to engage in respectful and informed conversations on these topics, and to continue to work towards creating a more inclusive and accepting society for all.

And now this controversy has spilled over into the release of the Hogwarts Legacy video game. This has led to renewed protests on social media and even spawned a site, which at the time of this has been closed, that was set up to publicly out any Twitch streamer who played it. This led to many complaints of bullying of streamers. 

Yes, cyber bullying is a problem on Twitch, just like it is on any other online platform. Online harassment, including cyber bullying, can take many forms such as hate speech, personal attacks, threats, and spreading false information. The anonymity of the internet can make it easier for some individuals to engage in such behavior, and the large, global audience of Twitch can amplify the impact of cyber bullying.

Twitch has policies in place to address cyber bullying and other forms of harassment, and they take reports of such behavior seriously. However, as with any large platform, it can be challenging to monitor and enforce these policies effectively. It's important for users to report instances of cyber bullying they encounter and for Twitch to continue to work on improving their anti-harassment measures to create a safe and respectful community for everyone.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Don't drop to someone else's level. If you have a problem with what someone was saying, find a better way to do it. You know, as Typhon just said, you take that high road. I know that it's not easy. I know that it's not easy to do that, but it's what's the right thing to do in the long run. And it is the most effective way to be able to discuss differences of opinion with people. Welcome to Down the Rabbit Hole, a podcast for creators, where we stream live every Wednesday, 8 p.m. on Twitter Spaces. Tonight we're going to talk about Hogwarts Legacy and maybe even more so about online bullying. Ty Flo Ren and myself are going to present the facts, not things that are right and wrong in terms of people's opinions and whether they should or shouldn't play this game. We're going to focus a lot on the bullying aspect of it too. And it's just that some events that have happened recently have kind of re-kindled that fire of mine about combating um online harassment, online bullying. So before we get into all that though, I just want to say hello and welcome in, Ty Flowren. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_00: 1:02

I am doing well. Thank you for having me tonight, Morph. This is a very serious and also morally gray topic that we have going on for both of us tonight. I've been approaching this with a more strategic and logical solution than coming at this in terms of anger.

SPEAKER_01: 1:21

First thing we want to cover is the controversy around Hogwarts' legacy. I don't know if Tyflo, if you wanted to kick that part off.

SPEAKER_00: 1:28

As uh our listeners and many of our mutual viewers and streamer friends alike know, JK Rowling has come out openly as transphobic and against um the transgender community, which has upset a lot of people within the video game world, both uh creators and um our viewers alike. And that's uh where the issue with Hogwarts legacy comes in is those who are playing it are walking a very tight line, even uh though that many of them have openly come out as allies and standing with the trans community. The trans some individuals within the trans community have taken issue with people who are playing this game and stating that they are supporting content and a medium that is aligned with uh someone who is openly transphobic. And my question to you and also to our listeners here is should we censor every piece of uh medium simply due to the creator? And the follow-up question to that for our listeners is can we separate the art from the artist?

SPEAKER_01: 2:40

That is a an excellent and very difficult to answer question. And my my opinion is I don't know. Until 2020, when JK Rowling's comments about trans women were were published, uh I loved the Harry Potter world. My kids love the Harry Potter world. Um we've been making plans to go down to Florida to spend time at Universal Studios. You know, we've watched read the books as a family, we've watched the everybody loves it. Um but then something changed. You know, Dra J. Rowling, um, she is what's known as a turf, a transvolutionary, uh radical feminist. And it's a difficult it's difficult, you know, because in one hand you you you love the work, you love the art, you love what the creation is. But you're and they say on the other hand, you're disgusted by the person that created it. Now, I think the challenge that a lot of people have, actually it's not a challenge for some people, they just say, no, I don't like it, is you are you sacrificing or compromising part of yourself, part of your your integrity by continuing to engage or consume this content by made by somebody that you do not like personally. I I don't know what this means for me, but I know that, and as I mentioned to you um in private the other day, IFLO, I have had a harder time backing away from the Harry Potter world than I have some other thing. It's it's it's been a challenge. Now I I firmly stand with LGBTQA plus community and and uh my trans friends, and you know, I have I haven't really talked about this much on stream, if at all. Um I haven't played the game on stream. I don't own the game. Um, but it is something that I was previously looking forward to, but it's just a tight line, it's just a tight, tight line to walk.

SPEAKER_00: 4:37

There's no real clear-cut cookie-cutter solution to this. Uh, we can't simply just say forget about it, because unfortunately, the artist is still connected to that medium, and and I think that's the thing, too, is a lot of us come at this uh topic with personal biases. I myself will even share a bit of uh the story too, where I have close friends within the LGBTQ um trans communities that have said to me that they find uh um my content and myself as a creator to be someone that provides a safe uh not just a safe space, but also using my platform and my voice to stand with them and to make sure that they are heard and represented. So approaching this game, I will admit there is personal bias on my end of wanting to stand with the trans community, but also at the same time trying to find a more level-headed and logical solution instead of openly bullying those who are uh who do decide to play the game and instead have uh a more mature discussion like you and I are having right now.

SPEAKER_01: 5:55

Um, if you have been following me for any period of time, you know how strongly I advocate for uh women's rights, how strongly I advocate for equality for the BIPOC community and LGBT community, and I've had a number of of podcasts or or streams dedicated to specifically to um gender breaks in in gaming. And you know, we we take these things very seriously and we support people that generally um need need support, need more light shone on their cause, on their on their plate. Now, what I find interesting about how this online protest has transpired over the last few days is I have been one people, one of the people that, you know, when trans streamers are being harassed, when there's organized hate rage standing up and speaking out and saying this is wrong, you know, they can't target people like this is it's it's harassment in it, it's it's uh disgusting. But what happened a few days ago is the very people who as a community were dealing with that started something exactly the same. A website was created that is fortunately now shut down, but a website was created to identify, publicly identify in a very easily to consume way everybody who played the game on Twitch with the express um intention of bullying them on their streams for playing the game of outing them publicly, and even a stated goal of writing letters to their any sponsors that these affiliates or partners had in an attempt to get the sponsors to drop them. And the irony in that is mind-boggling. Mind-boggling. What are your thoughts, Daiflo?

SPEAKER_00: 7:52

It's it's a site that I'm not fully on board with, honestly. I was very concerned when that site actually was able to come off off come off the ground. And I do notice that there are some comments here from our mutual friend Insaian Troll. So Insaian Troll says, I'm in a position where I don't even like Harry Potter, so it's no loss for me, but I don't believe someone should be labeled transphobic just because they want to be a wizard. The real issue begins with how far does this go? If we dig into every celebrity backstory, how much media would we have to boycott and fight against? And yes, cyberbullying the people who decide to play the game is not okay either. Right, so I will empathize with Insane Troll here, um, and say that the type of game that Hogwarts Legacy is is not the kind of content that I live stream on Twitch. And that's the thing, too, is even though Insane Troll and I uh don't even plan to stream the game because it's not uh the the type of content or medium that we're into, we cannot stand or abide by the fact that there is a site that is essentially fighting fire with fire, and that that's what this thing is is it's because we are or that site is trying to witch hunt and label creators as unsafe for playing Hogwarts Legacy. Unfortunately, it plays into the hands of transphobes themselves, it's using the emotions of the trans community against um themselves, and it's it's uh something that I need to bring to light. Uh, the trans community and allies of the trans community cannot cannot and should not um fight fire with fire, and that we need to find an alternate solution to this. Uh, what are your thoughts on that, Morph?

SPEAKER_01: 9:50

Yeah, I I agree, and I think that that's what has has bothered me about it so much. I have no problem and and would even support and have supported, you know, the trans community in in coming out against this game. I have not liked people coming out against people that want to just play the game. It's I I don't truly understand that, you know, especially when people initially, you know, was hey, if you play this game, if you breathe the words JK Rowling or Harry Potter, you are a transphobe. And that is just plainly not true. It's just it's just patently untrue. I I I I I hypocrisy is frustrating. It's frustrating because I want to support people, but I just do not like the way that some people are going about boycotting this. There are better ways, smarter ways, more logical and uh ways to to discuss this. I am someone who grew up idolizing um Dr. Martin Luther King. I read a a lot about him. I even wrote um a book that I self-published at one point about him, but not even just about him, about pacifism and you know, the idea that you can still achieve things that you want to achieve, equality and and winning rights without being uh you know over the top aggressive or violent or anything like that. You can do these things, but in order to do that and do that the right way, you have to separate the emotion from what you're doing and approach it with a level head and with logic and bring receipts. And I think if you can do that, you're going to get a lot more people willing to listen to you and understand what you're saying and be more successful in what you're trying to accomplish.

SPEAKER_00: 11:47

Absolutely. And it looks like we have two comments here from another mutual friend of ours, bearded Nova. Welcome in. Um, to me, the majority of a good 99 per point nine percent of Hogwarts players are purely those that love the Harry Potter universe. It's not a support to JK, but some kids that want to be a wizard. I see it no different than vegans getting angry at someone playing a cooking simulator or anti-war against a COD player. And that uh last comment there, bearded Nova, it brings to light not just bullying over Hogwarts' legacy, but a broader picture of difference of opinion in general, like you were talking about, Morph. What are everyone's thoughts on that? Who streams that wizard game website? Do you uh do you all think that there should be a different solution to this? And also, um if any of you have very strong opinions against it, we'd uh you are welcome to um tell us in the comments as well.

SPEAKER_01: 12:53

One question I'd like to pose to you the people are understandably upset with JK Rowling and have been in the for the last three years, um, because she is a billionaire transphobe that profits off people consuming her content. And one place where people were very adamant and really calling her out is on Twitter, a site run by a billionaire transphobe who profits off you using his platform. Am I the only one that sees hypocrisy in that?

SPEAKER_00: 13:22

So to follow up uh with your question uh to myself and to our listeners here is I think we need to bring to light that uh there is such a thing as boycotting out of convenience, where it is easy to boycott a video game uh or other such uh content because it's a medium that we can boycott from the comp from uh Twitter uh while it is more difficult to boycott Universal Studios, uh which is um a theme park in a specific location. And I wanted to ask you and our listeners um uh uh your thoughts on boycotting out of convenience and you know whether that's a concept that exists, or um, if one medium is boycotted, should other mediums related to that uh be boycotted as well for consistency purposes?

SPEAKER_01: 14:22

Yes. Simple answer is is yes. If it is something that is that egregious, whatever has been done, then you have to be thorough with your boy, because it your the point in canceling people is to ensure that they are not able to profit in in any way that you want to take the word profit from uh people consuming whatever it is that they do. And in this instance, JK Rowling, sure, she earns um uh um money from the sale of the game. She earns uh money from uh lending the Harry Potter name and likenesses of characters to universal studios. She earns from every single place that Harry Potter is is used, is invoked. And that extends far beyond Hogwarts legacy. But what I don't see is I don't see people boycotting all of those as adamantly in the last several months as I have this like one game. I don't know why. I I guess I want to understand why, and if because the only thing I can think of is exactly what you said, Tyflo. It's convenient, it's a convenient way to do it because you don't have to go and stand in front of um Universal Studios, you don't have to go and you know send letters to the media companies or boycott out in front of their offices um against JK Rowling and and everything that she does for them. That's my opinion.

SPEAKER_00: 15:51

Right. And I did notice a response from Insaientroll here um to our question of what everyone's thoughts are on who the street who streams that wizard game website. His words are it's not the right way to go about making your point. If you want to boycott that's 100% fine, but don't verbally attack someone, it undermill it undermines your own message. And to follow up with Insane Troll's comment, um, I think that's the thing too, is it if you yourself from a personal standpoint are not comfortable or will go so far as to boycott that game or other mediums related to it, that is fine because it is your own personal opinion. Now to press that on others, that's almost a mere opposite image of transphobes pressing their views as well. And it goes back to our talking point of fighting fire with fire, it's just not a viable solution or strategy, and that it only adds fuel um to the flame that we are trying to quench.

SPEAKER_01: 17:02

In Saint Well, I completely agree it's not the right way to go about it. There are better ways in your you're you're validating people that use these same tactics on the trans community, on the LGBDQ community, on BIPOC communities, on women streaming. Um you're validating it. You know, you can't condemn it and then do it. You can't you can't do that. It it it makes no sense. You have to be better than that. And I know that sometimes in the in the heat of the moment, it feels like the only thing you can do to get your point across. Well, why do you think the people that are uh homophobic and transphobic why do you think they do it? Because it's a way that they can get attention. So again, you cannot condemn something a practice and then engage uh in that practice. It is uh that is illogical. So kind of taking, you know, obviously you can still continue to to ask questions about hogwarts or talk about the hogwarts. Um, but uh if I'm shifting gears just a little bit into just you know bullying in general, you know, as I mentioned a few minutes ago, um it this topic of of uh um harassing uh women streamers has been something that I have uh tackled quite a bit on on my platform. And really what I what I'm seeing here is even uh further than that, because generally what happens with bullying of of women in gaming is it happens during the game. It there aren't usually uh coordinated targeted attacks. It's usually, you know, comments made over voice chat or or something to that effect. Um, which is bad enough. And it is publicly humiliating to the people that have to experience it. And it's it's it's happening simply because of who they are, who they were born as, which is exactly what happens to people who are or to trans streamers, they're being targeted and harassed simply because who they are, who they want to be, who they want to love. And what is happening in this particular instance is a targeted, organized attack on gamers who simply want to play a game. Now, if this kind of targeted, coordinated public harassment had been done by people who were racist against the people in the BIPOC community, there would be you would see it reported on the news. You'd see it reported on the news, there's no doubt you would, right? Yep, um because of the tactics they're employing. Like there's parallels there that that I don't think people are taking seriously enough.

SPEAKER_00: 19:39

And I just posted this question as well. Um, for both of us and for our listeners out there, uh, what are some tactics or solutions? Uh something more logical than counterbullying or fighting fire with fire. And I guess one of the follow-up questions which I will post soon is is it possible to have a more roundtable discussion uh to find some kind of compromise or even a middle ground for both parties uh to reach? Um, what do you think about that, Morph?

SPEAKER_01: 20:13

I think yes, but I think that it it's hard. I think it's specifically in this case, it's difficult because it it isn't so much that you're trying to get people who are bigoted in some way to sit down and uh tell them, please stop being bigoted. It's you know, hey, um please don't play this game because it supports somebody that uh who has a gigantic uh global platform and is saying harmful things about a specific community. I think that Twitch should have done something though. They didn't do anything at all. They didn't acknowledge it. They in fact they ran ad campaigns on behalf of the game to promote it. So I guess I mean actually, you know, money really does rule everything with with corporations, so I'm not a surprise that they didn't say anything about it because then they wouldn't have been able to profit off the uh advertising campaign. But I I think that they should have done something. Now, what wouldn't surprise me, and mark my words, when the hype around this game dies down, Twitch will probably come out and say something about it then. When there's no more money to be made after promotion of it, that's when they will do something about it, that's when they will say something about it. They will come out very much pro trans community, LGBTQ community, as soon as it's convenient.

SPEAKER_00: 21:41

And I did notice another comment from Insaian Troll with the question that I posted for our listeners that was asking what are some viable solutions instead of counterbullying, like uh from the site that we've uh that we were talking about. His response is having adult conversations and just agreeing to disagree with people on their points of view is the best way, unless it is a direct attack, then just block, report, ignore is the best way. Bullying, regardless of the target, is wrong. And I like that you brought that point up for us in Saiyan Troll. I'll even bring up a personal story when I made a report on Hogwarts Legacy, um, stating the controversy behind it and even outright saying why I personally wouldn't play. This goes back to me and insane trolling agreeing on the point like it's just not our kind of game that we're interested in showcasing to our viewership on Twitch, and adding to that point too, where my personal bias with um close friends and allies within the trans and LGBTQ communities um saying where my stance is this and I will not personally play it. Now, if several mutual streamer friends of mine were to play it, that them playing that game uh does not uh warrant a block or report uh from me. In fact, it's something where uh um we can have a civil discussion we're like we're having right now, and uh me giving my stance on it and but also resp hearing them out and uh hopefully they'll like coming to that middle ground, even if it means uh still staying in both of our separate camps and respecting each other's decisions.

SPEAKER_01: 23:30

Block, ignore, report, those are that's how you do it. That that's how you do it. If you guys know me, you know that I am not a stranger to people disagreeing with what I say, especially on Twitter, and I have become very familiar with block and ignore and and and report. It's it's how I do things. And like with those, like with those uh instances for myself, would I say that I have been uh harassed absolutely absolutely harassed, just like anybody else who gives an opinion on something uh sure that people disagree with, the def the knee jerk reaction by far uh far too large a group of people on the internet is to um harass people, harass people and not just condemn what they're saying, but to do so with malice. And I uh if you also know I I don't respond to people when they do that because there's no point. If somebody comes at me with, hey, I really don't uh like your opinion on this or agree with your opinion on this for reasons at A, B, and C, you know what? I will absolutely respond to them. Because they're approaching me with with logic, they're approaching me like an adult, and I will engage them to a point. And I think that that is I wish that is how more people are able to approach things that happen online. Um, but we quite often will just fight fire with fire now before anybody even says it, yes, I know I do have a reputation for going after people that attack people that I know or sometimes people that I don't know, um, based on some um demographic characteristics such as their skin color or or their gender or something to that effect. But that is more I I I maybe I shouldn't, but I I tend to justify that as defending somebody. Um and even when I do that, it's not like I'm doing I don't do personal attacks, I just remind them of how backwards their their viewpoint is and ask them to explain their bigotry.

SPEAKER_00: 25:35

Before I forget, I did notice a comment from um Shaley here that I want to read for us. I just don't understand why so many people think everyone has to be an activist and fight for the same things they fight for. And personally, I don't have the set the time or energy for that. I just want to spend my free time having fun and sharing good times with others and not dwell on drama. Right, and that is that is a very relatable sentiment, um, Shaley. Um, and this goes back to our talking point of pressing our views on others who, like you, Shayley, may not uh have the time and energy to dedicate to that, and it's not out of personal malice, it's just use you stating uh logical evidence saying, like, hey, I have other things on my plate, and uh I just don't have time to really put a lot of like effort into something that is mentally and emotionally draining, but the fact is too, it's a very difficult morally gray thing for us um to be talking about a topic like this, too. While yes, there's this uh something that we need to be speaking about, but also like we need to understand that although some of us may feel strongly on this topic, we can't just force people to join us or to expect people to have that same energy output that other people may give. And I did post um a question here to to follow up what you just said, Morph. Is it while it might be more difficult, is it better in the long run to, like you said, have the more logical high road and to provide receipts and also cite uh um other uh sources with um with with showcasing uh like how valid your point is, um essentially, and not trying to use or like to approach something in anger. What are your thoughts uh on that?

SPEAKER_01: 27:45

I think that is what's necessary. Now, you know, I'm saying that as someone who has several times tonight had to uh take a breath as I I get myself a little bit too worked up, but no, I think that that's I think that that is necessary and um the only way you're really going to have people express what they want to say and have any kind of have any hope of getting through or getting out of a situation um that is contentious on on on both sides is being able to explain it logically. The problem is far too often people will attack somebody simply because they don't like it, and that is that is the deepest their argument goes. Uh maybe they'll say it's against my beliefs. And and that's as far as as far as it goes. And it's hard to take those kind of arguments seriously when you don't have anything besides anything of depth, anything of of substance to argue and to try to convince somebody else of. Because what you're looking for is a debate essentially. Yeah, but you're not bringing anything to the table, no matter how loud you say something against another demographic, another group of people, they're still going to exist, there's still going to be people that support them, and they're still going to be here in society living their lives just as you are. So come with logic, come with some receipts, or just keep it to yourself because you're not going to do anything but probably make more allies for people.

SPEAKER_00: 29:19

And my follow-up question for that, this goes to both of us and for our listeners, is um, when it comes to making your stance on things, how do you do you think about how others will perceive uh um how strongly you feel about things like your family and friends or even your kids? And do you take into account that or do you kind of restrict uh yourself uh like emotionally in regards to how they may perceive how you're feeling? What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_01: 29:52

I don't I I don't take into account how somebody I know will feel about it, and it's not that I don't respect them. It's that I am my own person that has my own thoughts and opinions. And if somebody is friends with me and they like the things that we talk about normally, then they shouldn't be surprised by anything I say. I'm not gonna come out of the blue and say, you know, actually I don't like this or that type of person. They know that's not who I am, and that's not gonna come out of my mouth. So I feel it's important to let your thoughts be known.

SPEAKER_00: 30:26

Adding on to your last point there about being true to yourself, this but brings up the topic of masking as well. Um, you don't want to mask your true intentions or um to essentially restrict yourself on how you truly feel about a certain topic, and I'll even bring up a personal story too, um, in regards to this conversation. Uh, before you and I I logged on to have um this talk uh with you and our listeners, I I took the day off uh from content and was spending time uh with a close friend, and uh while we were grabbing coffee, um, we had a conversation in regards to Hogwarts legacy and also with online bullying as well. And I'll I'll admit uh that sometimes I'll have to not fully mask how I go about things, but to also bear in mind that she is one of those people that have told me that uh that I'm the kind of creator she looks up to and also um sees me as someone who stands up for others and uh uses my creativity to make her and others uh feel heard and represented. And she has told me that she wants to see uh more of like myself as a creator too, and that and to showcase like my true feelings and and stance on things, but also making sure that how I present it does not come from a source of anger or um overly emotional as well. So, yes, I I do uh um try to showcase or to provide a stance on who I am as a creator, but also bearing in mind that how I go about it is another strategy as well.

SPEAKER_01: 32:23

Intent is a big deal, and it really can make or break your argument as to whatever discussion is you're having. It's it's all on how you it's all on how you phrase it.

SPEAKER_00: 32:33

One very last point that I want to bring up is this is in regards to our last question and conversation too, is when it comes to like the future generations of gamers and also fans of um certain topics too, is as we move forward, can we try to teach them to separate an art or a medium from the artists and to instead try to change the narrative for them, saying that Harry Potter, the Harry Potter universe is still a safe space for them to be themselves and essentially uh paint it in a more positive note? What what are your thoughts on that, Morph?

SPEAKER_01: 33:13

I I still think that it it can be comments or opinions of the artists. I always felt that Harry Potter it really did feel like a safe place, it was a place of like of wonder and of fantasy, but it was a very inclusive world, in my opinion. Um, the way that people are treated in the underdogs and all that kind of stuff. Um and I don't feel differently about the world that I'm seeing. When I'm watching a Harry Potter movie or reading a book with my kids, I'm not thinking, you know, man, I don't know if I should do this because the author is transphobic. Because you don't like get that sense from reading the books or watching the movies. Kids enjoy it, it's fun. You know, they they like things, they identify things, they they see themselves and other characters, and it's fun and it makes them feel good. So I think that you can in some circumstances separate the art from the artist, it might be more difficult than other times, but I think that it's possible.

SPEAKER_00: 34:15

One other final point that I want to make for both of us and our listeners too, is when it comes to feeling to uh making a stand or to or to essentially pick a side on something and to uh showcase uh like your views when it comes uh to doing that, make sure that you are approaching it and providing logical points and and citing it uh your yourself as well and not trying to go about it in an overly emotional state or to come off as angry because the opposite side that you are trying to convince or to dispute will use that against you, unfortunately. And I know it's easier said than done to take the high road, but you have to think in the long run for yourself and also for the people that you stand by that you need to take a logical, measured approach and uh to hopefully come to a middle ground or happy medium with the opposing side.

SPEAKER_01: 35:35

I could not agree more with that. And the last thing that that I will say is don't drop to someone else's level. But if you have a problem with what someone was saying, find a better way to do it, you know, as Typhon just said, you take that high road. I know that it's not easy, right? I know that it's not easy to do that, but it's what's the right thing to do in the long run, and it is the most effective way to be able to discuss differences of opinion with people is to have that conversation, to present arguments that that you can't actually have a conversation about, just saying I hate you because I do, or I dislike that because I do are not helpful, nothing gets solved. I don't think anyone uh brings up a point about something they do or don't like because they want it to continue, they do it because they want it to stop, they want to see it changed. You can't do that if your approach is um out of pure emotion. As difficult as it can be in the moment, sometimes try to take a step back, take a breath or two, figure out what it is you really want to say, what you think can help convince the other person why there might be a flaw in their viewpoint, and then re-engage. And if they are emotional about it too, wait, wait till they're not because nothing's gonna get solved, and people uh have super high emotions. Thanks so much for hanging out, everybody. If you enjoyed this episode, make sure to like and share the podcast. Don't forget we are here every Wednesday on Twitter Spaces at 8 p.m. If you have a comment or an idea for a future episode, make sure to drop us an email at downtherabbit hole at elevated.media. Thanks, have a great day.